IEEE Robotics & Automation Magazine - June 2012 - 106

Turning Point

*
(continued from page 112)

does indeed exist, for example,
measuring brain waves (scientists
have found evidence of that). I do
appreciate the fact that research is
being conducted in this area, but from
my point of view, I think that the
brain waves act that way because we
feel eerie. It still doesn't explain why
we feel eerie to
* begin with. The
uncanny valley reThe uncanny valley
lates to various
relates to various
disciplines, including philosophy,
disciplines, including
psychology, and
philosophy,
design, and that
is why I think it
psychology, and
has generated so
design, and that is
much interest.
However, I never
why I think it has
imagined that it
generated so much
would gain such
a magnitude of
interest.
* interest when I
first wrote about
it. Pointing out the existence of the
uncanny valley was more of a piece
of advice from me to people who
design robots rather than a scientific
statement.

NK:

How much response did you
get when you first wrote your essay?
MM: You could say that there was
no response.

NK:

Then when did the uncanny
valley start to receive attention from
outside of Japan?
MM: It started to be picked up after
the humanoids conference in 2005
(IEEE Robotics and Automation Society International Conference on
Humanoid Robots). I was also invited
to that event, but I was unable to
attend due to other commitments.

NK: Since then, the uncanny valley
has become a sort of principle in the
robotics field. What is your take on
this?
MM: It is nothing for me to brag
about, but I am pleasantly surprised that it has become so well
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IEEE ROBOTICS & AUTOMATION MAGAZINE

known that people are talking
about it so much.

NK: It means that it took 40 years
for the world to catch up.
MM: Yes, I agree. This may not get
across to people overseas, but I think
of myself as the dog in the story
"Hanasaka Jiisan." (In this Japanese
folk story, a dog barks to let his owners know where to dig, and when they
dig they find gold.) I seem to have a
good nose for sniffing out interesting
things, but I don't have the skill to dig
them up. That's why I bark "Dig
here!" and then other people will dig
and find treasure. Or, if people don't
dig, I dig a little bit by myself. Then
people come in like a gold rush. The
uncanny valley was just one of the
things that I sensed.
NK: Do you think there are robots
that have crossed the uncanny
valley?
MM: Yes. I think the HRP-4C (an
adult-size humanoid robot developed
by Japan's National Institute of
Advanced Industrial Science and
Technology) is one of them. Though
on second thought, it may still have a
bit of eeriness in it.
NK: Your uncanny valley chart
captures the concept nicely: The
curve first goes up, as people's affinity toward robots increases, they
become more humanlike, but only
up to a point, when the curve suddenly plunges into the uncanny valley. Do you still think that robot
designers should aim for the first
peak instead of aiming beyond the
valley?
MM: Yes, I do. I always tell them to
stop there. Why do you have to take
the risk and try to get closer to the
other side? It's not even interesting to
develop a robot that looks exactly like
human, from my perspective.
NK: What do you mean by that?
MM: I have no motivation to build a
robot that resides on the other side of

JUNE 2012

the valley. I think the (design of)
ASIMO is more invigorating. I feel
that robots should be different from
human beings.

NK: But aren't there many projects
in Japan that are aiming for the
other side of the valley?
MM: I wouldn't say that there are
many, but yes there are some, and
that's fine. Although I do think it is
difficult. Using the woodcarving of a
Buddha statue as an example, that one
last touch of the knife may destroy the
whole thing. There is a narrow margin
for error.
NK: There are people like former
Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor and founder of
start-up Heartland Robotics Rodney
Brooks who think humans are
also machines and that they can be
built. What are your thoughts on
this?
MM: I don't know. I do agree that
some aspects of humans are like
machines. But what I don't know is
the mind. I think this is a problem
that humans will never be able to
solve. No one can explain whether an
object can bear a mind. We don't
know whether a mind will be formed
when computers become really precise. Will a computer feel one day that
it's not in a good mood or that it
doesn't like this person or that? I don't
know. My friend Ichiro Kato (the late
Waseda University professor and pioneer in humanoid research) used to
think that the mind can be created,
but I don't think so. That's because we
really don't know what the mind
essentially is.
NK: How would you like the idea
of the uncanny valley to be applied
in the world?
MM: Research related to the
uncanny valley will make progress
naturally. I am grateful for that. It has
been 24 years since I retired from the
university, and I am now 85 years old.
There is nothing that I can do about it

Table of Contents for the Digital Edition of IEEE Robotics & Automation Magazine - June 2012